Sunfire Theater Grand III Processor Review
Sunfire Theater Grand III
- Product Name: Theater Grand III Processor
- Manufacturer: Sunfire
- Performance Rating:
- Value Rating:
- Review Date: July 14, 2003 19:00
- MSRP: $ 3500
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Pros
- Nice Universal Remote Control
- Bass management adjustments from 40Hz to 160Hz
- Video Switching employs 100HHz bandwidth
- Triggered outputs 500mA current
- Power up volume configuration
- Auto signal sensing
- Flash memory upgrade via CD
- Balanced XLR output
- Name recognition
Cons
- Sound lacks detail and bass seems flat compared to other processors
- Mediocre signal to noise ratio for price range
- Lights stay on at all times
- No remote operation for dimming lights
- Channel trim accuracy limited to +/- 1dB
- Volume knob wobbles
- Only one set of speaker level adjustments stored
- No subwoofer group delay adjustment
- No sub in analogue bypass
- Only one IEEE 1394 connector
- Pink noise has distortion and crackling
- Lacks refinement for price range
Sunfire Theater Grand III Introduction
It's not very often that Audioholics declines a detailed review of hardware, but every once in a while, we receive a product that doesn't meet our expectations. Sunfire's Theater Grand III (TGIII) is such a product, where we felt its performance and refinement did not match up to its $3,500 price tag.
Sunfire Theater Grand III Overview and Deficiencies
The Process of Review
Giving every product as fair a review as possible, we had three listeners and operators use the Sunfire Theater Grand III for a weekend long extravaganza. It was initially installed in our Reference System 2, which was once home for the Sony TA-9000ES processor and now hosts the Integra Research upgraded RDC-7 processor. After our review, we verified our findings by checking out an additional processor at a local dealer where we had the Theater Grand III in a sound dampened room equipped with the B&W Nautilus 800 Series. Our findings using a completely different processor with completely different speakers in completely different room acoustics were the same, Disappointing! Primarily due to it's only moderate performance, a lengthy list of deficiencies and it's price.
Back in our Reference System 2, we switched several times between the Sony, Sunfire and Integra Research, listening to multiple Satellite TV movies, CDs, DVDs and SACDs each time. The procedure was painful as there are tons of connections to remove prior to moving out the heavy 29-lb Sony and even heavier 37-lb Integra Research. It was a bit easier to install the lighter weight 25-lb Theater Grand III.
Deficiencies
Prior to presenting our listening comments, it's worth mentioning the Theater Grand III shortcomings. The deficiencies are as follows:
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Main volume only +/- 1dB incremental adjustments.
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Channel Level adjustment trim accuracy of only +/- 1dB. If you are a serious home theater buff, as most of us are, you probably use a sound meter to calibrate your speaker levels. With only a +/- 1dB volume adjustment for each channel, it's next to impossible to get equal readings for speaker volumes.
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No subwoofer group delay adjustments. This can often be a critical feature when attempting to match a subwoofer with other bass capable speakers in the system.
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Only one global speaker level/channel trim adjustment setting. Most operators will use these global settings for CD and DVD movies. This becomes problematic when switching between SACD / DVD Audio and back to DD / DTS sources due to the inherent level subwoofer differences of the formats. In DVD-A / SACD, the subwoofer output is significantly lower than DD / DTS (as much as 15dB!). Without additional calibration levels, you are forced to change subwoofer level and speaker level settings on the fly when listening to DVD-A, as these setting can not stored without over writing the global settings previously calibrated for CD and DVD movies. When switching back to the stored settings, the DVD-A settings are lost and must be readjusted the next time you listen to a DVD-A. Many new receivers and processors provide independent 6-channel speaker level trims in analog bypass. These trims, although digitally regulated, operate in the analog domain.
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The analog bypass (source direct mode) doesn't offer subwoofer output. Many receivers and processors offer sub-out in analog mode via an electronic relay while the 2-channel still bypasses all digital circuitry. This is useful for those with small main speakers or those who wish to utilize their subwoofers to compliment bass extension of their large tower speakers.
-
Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) is merely average for a product of this caliber.
Note: Most well designed $1500 receivers have better SNRs than this. In fact, state of the art is about 10dB better (equating to 18 to 19 bits of resolution). SNR is an essential metric in determining fidelity of a system, especially since most critical listening is down at low power levels. A noisy system can mask the details and subtle nuances which the serious audiophile cherishes. Regardless of the only moderately published noise figures, our listening tests seemed to indicate that this unit was even noisier, which made us wonder what method/reference and weighing the manufacturer used to evaluate SNR.
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Pink Noise for speaker level calibration is distorted and crackled.
- There is only one IEEE 1394 connector. With this the IEEE cannot be daisy chained. The Integra Research RDC-7, for example, has a pending upgrade that will offer three IEEE 1394 connectors. Granted, there are many other processors and receivers that only offer one connector, so this statement is extended to them as well.
- Feature lights, such as radio station presets and mode settings, remain on regardless of their function and use.
- Dimming of the lights is not operable via remote.
Some may consider a few of the deficiencies listed here as only partially important and maybe even forgivable, but we feel compelled to point out that for $3,500, the list should not be this long, especially since most receivers at half this price do not share these deficiencies. Now, coupled with the average Signal to Noise Ratio, and the fact that our subjective listening tests revealed this processor lacked the subtle details and micro dynamics in both analog and digital modes makes one wonder why such a price tag.
Sunfire Theater Grand III Fidelity, Build Quality and Kudos
The Basis of Comparison
Given our experience with other processors such as the Sherbourn PT-7000, Aragon Soundstage, Sony TA-E90000ES, Integra Research RDC-7 (review pending), and a host of receivers, such as the Denon AVR-5803 (review pending) and the Yamaha RX-Z1, we felt that we had a solid basis of indirect comparison. With the Sony TA-E9000ES and the Integra Research RDC-7, we also were able to do a direct comparison. For all our listening tests, we use familiar audio CD's, DTS-CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's and DVD's in order to develop an ear for how certain nuances in the music or movie sound track sound between different units. We also have a solid feel for how the speakers perform in our Reference System, even in a room with marginal acoustics. In addition, we did our best to switch between the Sony and Integra Research in order to get a fresh listen to the differences between all three units. Keep in mind that we calibrated all the speaker level volumes on each processor with a Radio Shack Sound Level Meter to assure that the difference were not due to volume settings.
Fidelity
While alone in an audio rack, the TGIII presents a full range of sound, especially with movie soundtracks. It's only when compared to other units either indirectly (somewhat ambiguous) or directly, that we were able to subjectively assess its actual sound quality. Based on our indirect comparison to the units listed above, and our direct comparison to the Sony and Integra Research, we felt that the Theater Grand III did not present the subtle detail in both the analog and digital domains that we found in other processors and receivers in this price range and below. We feel this may be partly due to the average Signal to Noise Ratio inherent to the TGIII. In addition, we felt the TGIII did not present the micro dynamics or significance in soundstage/presence as the Integra Research RDC-7, the Aragon Soundstage, and in some cases, even the dated Sony TA-E9000ES.
One of our listeners (a total Sunfire fan) felt that the TGIII did sound more open than the Sony, but he concurred that the detail difference was definitely noticeable. We also felt that the mid bass and low bass were not as tight or prominent, especially when directly compared to the RDC-7. Each time we reverted back to the Sony or the Integra Research, we instantly noticed a richer, more authoritative bass response from the mains. With the Integra Research, we also noticed a tighter bass response from the sub. Note that all tone controls were either bypassed or set to flat, and the bass management were all set to the same crossover frequencies and channel calibrations via an SPL meter. We felt the RDC-7 also presented improved soundstage with tighter bass and more detail, without sounding bright or harsh as some Japanese Electronics are said to be known for. We do appreciate the fact that the Integra Research is around $700 more than the TGIII. But the TGIII is about $2,000 more than the Sherbourn PT-7000 and frankly, we felt there wasn't enough difference in sound quality, and features between these two units to justify the price gap, especially since the Outlaw Clone version of the Sherbourn Processor could be had for a mere $799. In fact, one of our listeners even felt that the Sherbourn processor had an improved soundstage over the TGIII.
Another fidelity test was done while viewing HBO movies on satellite with the TGIII's Dolby Pro-Logic II. Keeping in mind that the movies we viewed were not being broadcast in 5.1 surround, we wanted to listen to how the TGIII presented the Pro-Logic II. In all of the processors and receivers we have previously reviewed, this mode did a tremendous job of dividing the sound from a two-channel source into believable 5.1 surround. While the Theater Grand III did a good job of separating the sound track, we felt it did not present as open or realistic of a soundstage when compared to other units. Words can't describe the difference that the Integra Research RDC-7 presented as this processor was able to fool us into thinking we were listening to an actual DVD decoding DD or DTS.
Build Quality and Refinement
After our rigorous listening session, we went on to examine the build quality and refinement. Sunfire did a great job of creating a seamless brushed aluminum anodized cover around the unit. But on closer examination, it's our opinion that this $3,500 processor is somewhat lacking refinement for a product in this price range. For starters, the recessed volume knob wasn't flush all around and it even wobbled when rotated. This was true with the unit we examined at a local dealer as well. Nit picking? Yes, but for $3,500 we feel compelled to nit pick. Another feature we found lacking was the lighting. We suspect for simplicity in design, Sunfire decided to leave all 10 yellow radio station lights and all matching mode function lights on the entire time the unit was powered up. The radio station lights do not correspond to the station preset or mode selection, they are just on. We find this a bit puzzling, as the lights seem to be independent of their use and function. It is more customary for lights like these to only come on individually when its corresponding function is selected. While this may not bother some, we found it became an eye sore when viewing movies at night in a darkened room. Furthermore, the only way to dim the lighting on the Theater Grand III is by actually going up to the unit and finding the button on the front panel (which, incidentally, isn't even back lit). This function is not remote operable. Again, another deficiency when it comes to the refinement one should expect in a $3,500 processor.
The Positives
Well, we couldn't mention all the negatives without at least providing some positives. Sunfire selected a great remote from Universal Remote. You can actually purchase this Theater Master MX-500 remote from dealers and use it for all your home theater products. Sunfire isn't the only OEM to purchase this remote from Universal Remote and place their logo on it, so it's not unique to the Theater Grand III.
Another positive is the variable bass management of 40Hz to 160Hz in 10Hz increments. This is a very useful feature that is not commonplace on many of today's pre/pros and receivers. For getting this right, we give kudos to Sunfire.
Kudos also go out for the video switching (with 2 sets of high bandwidth Component Video Outputs!) as not many receivers or processors (even the RDC-7) offer what the Sunfire has. The video switching circuitry employs 100MHz bandwidth throughput to exceed the video needs of today's most demanding HDTV installs. Although it would be nice if this processor offered video up conversion as many newer receivers are now offering. This would make it possible to view the on screen menu via component video, which is useful when adjusting parameters while viewing and listening to DVDs.
The triggered outputs are capable of operating just about any power relay/control box with its 500mA current drive capability (most receivers don't offer this robust current drive). The Sunfire TGIII also has power up volume configuration. This is helpful each time you turn on the unit as you are assured that it is the same volume and not blaring loud from where you left it when turning it off.
The TGIII also offers Auto signal sensing input switching which automatically turns the unit on and selects your source and surround mode. Both these features are also available on many of the newer receivers and processors and are not unique to Sunfire. However, we read numerous forum threads during our research of this product all written by operators who own this unit. In them, we found a surprising number of people complaining that this feature only works intermittently. Most people have turned off this feature do to this problem. In the short period of time we operated this unit, we were unable to verify this intermittent problem, so we wonder if Sunfire updated their software to resolve this issue.
The unit also offers balanced XLR output, flash memory upgradeability via a CD and an IEEE-1394 connector (firewire).
Sunfire Theater Grand III: Sunfire Response - Part 1
Greetings everyone. I'm Alan Cooney. For those of you who don't know me,
I have the privilege of being Bob Carver's VP of engineering at Sunfire.
Special thanks to David Bott, the AVS Forum Administrator, for accepting
my unreasonable request to reopen this thread. If he sees the discussion
degenerate, however, I'm sure he won't hesitate to put an end to the squabble
with finality.
The reason for this post is that I'm clear there's some
confusion and misinformation running about, and I feel we have a responsibility
to provide clarity wherever we see it's missing.
[Kudos all
around]
First I'd like to say, "Thanks" to all of you who've
shared your views on our gear, both pro and con. Such controversy helps everyone
by bringing issues to light and generating new ideas. Sharing your opinions
really does make a difference for everyone.
While engineers aren't
typically known for showing their feelings (Really! No kidding!), some reviews
can have their own unique way of calling forth some pretty wild stuff. Consider how you'd feel if
someone called your child ugly, stupid, or said some part of them was a
disgusting color. So I'll concede that highly critical comments about the fruits
of our passion can be difficult to swallow, AND I'm clear that we benefit from
being shown where we can or need to improve. No pain, no gain, right?
[A few points about the recent Audioholics review]
Noise floor: The
Theater Grand
III's noise floor is far lower than Dolby requires for a product of this
caliber. I find Dolby to be a real "no s#!t" company which is driven by
engineering and science rather than marketing or hype. As a physicist and
engineer, Bob Carver similarly directs design dollars into elements of
engineering and science where they have the most positive sonic and experiential
impact. Those who own Theater Grand III pre/pros
know they're very quiet. And probably not silent with volume at maximum and your
ear against the speaker, no. If you evaluate your system that way, I invite you
to press "PLAY" on your favorite CD while in that position. (grin)
You might say, "But that's silly. No one listens that way!" Um... that's right.
No one does.
Audioholics Response
While we certainly agree that nobody listens to their system with the volume all the way up and their ears at the speakers, noise floor does give a good indication of how well the gear will resolve low level material. If the noise floor of the product masks these small signal levels, this can result in loss of detail and resolution regardless of volume level. While the Sunfire Theater Grand III is not an excessively noisy unit per se, we feel it is definitely not state of the art with respect to its price class. If we were to follow your argument to its logical conclusion, why would we ever try to achieve any resolution higher than 16 bit CDs? Why bother with DVD-A or SACD? We hardly consider Dolby Digital as the baseline format for high resolution playback. In fact we personally feel that compression formats such as Dolby Digital and MP3 have lowered consumer expectations on what high fidelity playback should be.
+/- 1dB speaker calibration adjustments: This is an area where we meet another Dolby spec that's fine for the average home theater owner, although we've learned that some audiophiles like to dial things in a bit tighter. And since we've had several requests for +/-0.5dB trim resolution, we'll try to get that into the next software release. (For those of you who are into software, I know it sounds easy. The limitation is not in actually setting the levels, but rather backward compatibility with prior releases -- since we allow loading earlier versions -- when we assign extra nonvolatile storage for these parameters).
Audioholics Response
Due to the pricing and features of the equipment being commented on, we are engaging in discussion about high end audio equipment, are we not? We do not believe we are dealing with just the "average home theater owner". We understood that the Theater Grand III was positioned as a separates solution that betters an all in one box super receiver. If this is the case, how can a mass market $800 receiver have improved precision over a dedicated $3500 processor? Also since this is your third iteration of the product, we would have thought (indeed we expected) that Sunfire would have implemented more accurate channel trim adjustments to keep up with their competition while also offering a more precise product to consumers. Perhaps the issue with the current Theater Grand III is not with backwards compatibility of earlier firmware versions but with the accuracy of the employed potentiometers utilized in the product. We understand that more precise potentiometers can often involve a cost addition to the product.
Front panel lights: We actually have full control of this in software. We didn't want too many dim settings and we spent a comically excessive amount of time discussing this internally and with our beta testers. We have four dim settings now. How many before it's annoying to step through them all? And with the variety of lights on the front panel of this unit, we knew whatever we did wouldn't please everyone. Case in point here. (grin) We can easily add another setting. Perhaps with only the amber lights off and all else on at a low level. Comments anyone?
Audioholics Response
I think our point was misunderstood here. What the article was discussing is the fact that all the radio station and mode function lights are on when they are not globally dimmed, regardless of their use and function.For example, all the radio station preset lights are on at the same time. It's more customary and probably makes more sense to make them dependant on the radio station selection. This holds true for the Mode function lights as well. Why are they on when they are not indicating anything? Furthermore, why would you want all the radio station lights on when you are not even using the radio and are using a completely different source, such as a DVD player? To us, this makes no sense.
Dim from remote: Great idea! In designing the remote layout for the
TGIII, we had one extra button (the one next to "mute"). Hard buttons, once
committed and labeled, aren't available for anything else, and I didn't feel
strongly enough about any one function to commit that button. So we labeled it
innocuously ("*") and figured we'd choose later. I guess this is, "later." A
couple of options spring to mind: We could simply enable the "*" button to mimic
the front panel's DIM button. Or how about making it quicker to use by having
the remote button cycle only between fully bright and fully dim? At first blush
that and other ideas seem plausible, but there are problems with each as I think
them through. Again, comments anyone?
Audioholics Response
Excellent. This is a great idea and demonstrates the manufacturer's willingness to take a positive spin on critical feedback and make a product improvement accordingly.
Nonvolatile settings: The review says, "When the unit is turned off, those settings are lost and need to be readjusted the next time you listen to a DVD-A." Someone missed something here. All settings are saved at power down. Nothing is "lost" when the unit is turned off. Absolutely nothing. Hmmm...I feel a rant coming on here... So please skip to the next paragraph if you don't want to hear my innermost thoughts on this (really, skip now...last chance...okay...I warned you...): Reviewers do consumers, manufacturers, and themselves a big favor when they query manufacturers on any technical issues before going to press. If something's amiss, often they have a defective unit or they just missed something. Many seasoned pros get in communication with the manufacturer when questions arise, while being really clear that their opinions are not open for discussion. That's being responsible for their subjectivity, objectivity and technical accuracy. I frequently get calls from passionate reviewers who take the time to ask questions like, "Why did you do it this way?" Or, "Why does it do that?" The resulting extra bit of insight or inside info makes the reviews really interesting and fun to read while assuring they get the facts straight. They avoid the need for retractions or apologies later. There are nothing but good reasons for a reviewer to do this. It's clearly a win-win for everyone.
Audioholics Response
Agreed 100% and we apologize for this discrepancy. What we meant to say is as follows. There is only one set of global speaker level trims. When you adjust for DVD-A via the on the fly settings, they are indeed temporarily stored when the unit is turned off. The problem is when you revert back to the global stored settings for CDs or DVD movies, they overwrite the temporary settings since they are not permanently stored. If there were two independent sets of storage, this wouldn't happen.
Made in the USA
: The Theater Grand III is designed and manufactured here. Why? Because
Bob Carver wants it that way. And it's certainly no secret that the costs of
engineering and production in the USA
are substantially higher than in
Asia . One of our locally made grained and anodized aluminum
top-covers alone costs several times that of an entire chassis for a competing
Asian product. I do wish we at Sunfire were getting fat and rich here in the
little town of Snohomish Washington
folks. And we're not. For those
who make the choice to buy products made here, I thank you for my job. And your
neighbors thank you for theirs. Hmmm...was that another rant? My passion for my
country showeth, methinks.
Audioholics Response
If we are reading this correctly, it sounds to us as if a lot of the budget for this product is in labor costs and cosmetics. This may certainly explain why the Theater Grand III processor lacked some basic features that so many lower priced receivers have, such as:
- Subwoofer delay adjustments
- Multiple channel trim configurations
- +/- 0.5dB channel trim adjustments
- Subwoofer output in 2CH direct mode
- Premium DACs in dual differential configuration for each channel
We understand and appreciate that Theater Grand III is using US suppliers, especially for the sheet metal aluminum anodized top covers. Also, we acknowledge that price is dependant on quantity. As we feel the seamless sheet metal top cover found on the TGIII is acceptable for this device, in our opinion, it isn't as complex or refined as those found on other receivers and processors that cost the same or less. The reality is many high end audio companies are at a disadvantage to larger mass market audio companies since they usually have less resources dedicated to R&D and usually do not benefit from trickle down technologies to a multi product platform. The cost of parts (ie. DACs, DSPs, etc) to the smaller manufacturers are generally higher since their demand in lower. Thus it is easy to see if the company chooses to expend most of the products budget on cosmetics and labor costs, very little is left to employ leading edge digital components typically found on less costly high end receivers and processors produced overseas.
Perhaps the Theater Grand III's cost is indeed affected significantly because Sunfire has chosen to use US suppliers for many of their subassemblies. Given that manufacturing costs are substantially higher in the US than overseas, it may explain the $3,500 price - in fact, it may even justify it for a US made product. Budget-conscious consumers, however, must be made aware that there are numerous other products offerings with improved Signal to Noise Ratios, improved product performance and a host of other useful features - all with a level of refinement that, in our opinion, exceeds that of Sunfire's Theater Grand III.
Sunfire Theater Grand III: Sunfire Response - Part 2
Other issues: I attribute other
"con" items in this review simply to personal disagreements with our design
choices to date. I'm clear the Theater Grand III isn't perfect (if it were, we
could all go home!) This is our third and best Theater Grand design. Each new
generation has been a dramatic step ahead of the last. And as Al Pacino said on
the silver screen, we're "just gettin' warmed up."
[Regarding some of
the posts on this thread]
Please be careful when comparing published
noise specs. Recent posts have compared our standard path analog (which runs
through the entire A/D->DSP->D/A->volume control signal chain like
everyone does it) performance against others' 6-channel input (fully bypassing
all but the volume controls, again like everyone else does it). Our performance
through what we call our 8-channel input is about 12dB better than our standard
analog performance, putting us right in there with the rest of the pack as you'd
expect. And our "source direct" two-channel mode is about the same as the
8-channel input. Apples to apples please, guys. There's just no smoking gun
here.
There's also some confusion about level trims on the 8-channel
input. The trims work there just as they do on other inputs. You have full
control over speaker trims via on-screen, direct remote commands, and RS232 at
all times and with all inputs.
Audioholics Response
All of the noise specs were compared for each product via their respected analog direct modes which bypass the DSP for 2CH and multi Channel Audio via their external high resolution inputs. Please note there are many AV Receivers and Preamp/Processors that offer a TRUE analog direct bypass mode via all of their analog inputs while still retaining subwoofer output in 2CH. The volume controls, although digitally regulated, operate in the analog domain, and the subwoofer output path is controlled via a relay control switch to operate the DSP for bass management to the subwoofer only while the stereo signal is sent directly to the power amp with no DSP processing.Another point to be made here is with regard to analog noise measurement. Sound and Vision Magazine did do a 6CH analog noise measurement and published it. Tabulated below is a comparison of various processors/receivers from Sound and Vision Magazine and Home Theater Magazine.
Excerpt from forum post regarding SNR comparisons of products
Note the Denon AVR-2803 ($800) 6CH input measures SNR of 95.6dB ref to 200mV while in a past review they did on the Sunfire III measured a mere 87.2dB (p54 from Nov 2002 issue) with the same test conditions. Thats over a 8dB worse figure from a product $2700 more!!Link to Sound And Vision Test Report of the Denon AVR-2803 Receiver ($800)
Note: 200mV reference is usually chosen for comparison since it yields the appropriate signal level output to a power amp (standard gain of 26dB) which will yield 1 watt into an 8 ohm load. Certainly a reasonable goal for high fidelity audio would be to attain a SNR > 90dB @ 1 watt, wouldn't you agree?
Translate those #'s to 1V ref you get
Denon AVR-2803 SNR = 109.6dBv
Sunfire III SNR = 101.1dBv
about 8.5 dB differenceEquate this to resolution terms:
Denon AVR-2802: 109.6 / 6 = 18.2 bits
Sunfire III 101.1/6 = 16.9 bits
According to Home Theater Magazine
The Parasound Halo C1 SNR 6CH-IN = 95.65dB ref to 100mV which would translate to 101.65dB @ 200mV which is about 15dB Better than the Theater Grand III. This is why you can't always go by published specs as you don't know how the manufacturers are rating them. Translate that figure to 1V and it is 115.7dB which is over 19bits of resolution!The Lexicon MC-12 rates 98.67dB ref to 100mV which translated to 104.67dB @ 200mV which is over 18dB better than the Sunfire III.
Translate that to 1V and it is 118.7dB which is over 19 bits of resolution!Granted, the Parasound Halo and Lexicon MC-12 processors do retail for more than the Sunfire Theater Grand III. However, they were used as an example to illustrate what the current achievable benchmark of performance is with respect to resolution of todays high end home theater products.
Sunfire specifies for Digital 2V SNR = 105dB, which is respectable performance, however since this is a high end piece, it is clear that implementing a premium DAC, such as a Burr Brown 1704/1738 , or possibly the current utilized DAC's, in dual differential configuration (as implemented on some sub $1000 receivers) the SNR could further be improved upon, while also increasing linearity and reducing distortion. Does Sunfire have any future plans of upgrading their DACs to at least match the performance of a typical well designed high performance home theater receiver?
[Wrap it
up. You've said enough!]
Again, thanks to you all for your support of
Bob Carver and those of us who have the privilege of working with Bob here at
Sunfire. And thanks for consistently challenging us to be even better. More late
nights are clearly in the future for those of us in engineering at Sunfire.
I'll be shaking a little time each week out of my schedule to spend in
forums like this one. If you have a question, I guarantee that others are
wondering the same thing. And when I have a question, I'm eager to hear a
variety of opinions (strangely, I find that people don't all agree on everything
-- go figure!) so we can shoot for designs/fixes/etc. that work for as many
folks as possible. If you have suggestions, please post them or give us a call.
Feedback does get through to me and I appreciate all of it -- pro and con.
I'd like to leave you with an appropriate quote from Brent
Butterworth's review of the Theater Grand III (December
12, 2002 issue of the Robb Report's "Home
Entertainment and Design" magazine):
"... TGIII's sound tickled my fancy from the first DVD. I did not think, as I expected to, that the TGIII sounded good. I thought it sounded great. "Sweet" is the word I would use to describe it ."
Audioholics Response
While we respect other reviewers opinions from other publications, we explicitly inform them to use our reviews and all reviews as a guideline and informational source only to assist them in their comparative shopping.
Audioholics Epilogue
It is usually Audioholics' procedure to furnish a copy of a product review to the manufacturer prior to publishing on our website to ensure there are no technical errors or misrepresentations of the product. In this case, since we were so displeased with the product performance and the review as such carried a negative tone, we decided to forgo this policy and publish our findings as a partial review. We now feel that this was unfair and not a good way to conduct future reviews. We offer our sincere apologies to Sunfire for not providing them an opportunity to review or debate our product review prior to publishing it. Going forward, we will make it policy to provide a copy of the review, whether favorable or not, to the manufacturer prior to posting to ensure there are no technical oversights or product misrepresentations. Again, we thank Sunfire for providing review samples of their products to Audioholics.com and hope to one day critically review an improved future iteration of the Sunfire Processor.
Our goal is to always provide the most objective and un-opinioned audio information on the internet. This can sometimes be difficult when writing subjective reviews and we will be mindful in the future. Please note our view of the product remains unchanged. We strongly feel based on its feature set and performance that the Sunfire Theater Grand III is grossly overpriced. However, that is our opinion and should be noted as such. As always we recommend you treat this review and all reviews as a source of information only to assist you in your comparative shopping. We sincerely hope you appreciate our efforts and wish to encourage any consumer in the marketplace to evaluate this and any other product on their own and formulate their own opinions based on their perception of the products performance and ability to satisfy their specific needs.
Sunfire Theater Grand III Conclusion
All-in-all, the Sunfire Grand Theater III is indeed a nice processor that will please many home theater enthusiasts. We simply felt it was somewhat deficient for the price. Past pre/pro reviews we have conducted include the Sherbourn PT-7000 processor, also similar to the Outlaw Model 950 ($799) and the Atlantic Technology P-2000 ($1699). Our review of the Sherbourn shared some of the Sunfire Theater Grand III deficiencies and lacking elements, but we didn’t have the same level of expectations for a processor under $1,500 and it therefore received a much more favorable and complete review. While the Sherbourn is by no means a state of the art processor, we felt it had a more musical analog preamp with a lower noise floor (as compared by the signal to noise ratio (Sherbourn in analog is 97.5dB @ 1V which is an improvement of 6.5dB)). The $2,000 price jump from the Sherbourn PT-7000 to the Sunfire TGIII just doesn’t seem that justified when considering all the TGIII's shortcomings.
If you are in the market for separates and have between $1,000 and $4,000 to spend on a processor, there are many other options. In fact, there are even some receivers that we believe offer higher performance and flexability than the TGIII. Let's take the Denon AVR-3803 for example. This receiver offers quad-dual differential DAC's on it's front channels in pure direct mode and dual differential DAC's on all channels in multi channel modes, subwoofer output in analog bypass, and 0.5dB channel trim accuracy. Few, if any, processors or receivers we are aware of in this price range currently offer this type of digital architecture. Note, Sound and Vision magazine recently completed reviews of a few sub $1000 receivers. Most of the receivers in this review had SNR's about 6-10dB better than TGIII via its 6CH analog inputs. We believe low noise is critical to bring out the ultimate potential of the new high resolution formats such as DVD-A and SACD and is one of the fundemental metrics of achieiving high fidelity.
One can argue and dispute over sound quality, build quality and feature sets between a list of different units. But one thing that isn't as disputable is the Signal to Noise Ratio and it's affect on fidelity, especially when a noisy system is coupled with high efficient speakers in close proximity to the listener. In our opinion, if Sunfire cleaned up the noise floor and addressed some of its design deficiencies, such as additional channel trims (especially for 6-channel inputs), additional IEEE connectors, sub output in two channel direct mode, the Theater Grand III would be more worthy of it's list price.
In the near future, Audioholic’s will be conducting extensive reviews on the Integra and Integra Research products, along with many other processors and receivers. In our opinion, the current Sunfire home theater products may serve well for sound reinforcement, but not necessarily for serious and accurate audiophile reproduction for the most critical applications.
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